The back and forth exchange.
The manipulation of words.
The changing the subject to fit the agenda.
The not being sure if the other party is really listening.
The formulation of a rebuttal.
And, I am not even talking politics. All of the above, describes my daily interactions with my nine-year-old. On a daily basis, the simplest of requests can result in a negotiation process that leaves me tired and frustrated. Dash has many, many good traits. One of those positive traits is that he does not give up. He has an unrelenting need to have things his way. From the time he was just learning to manipulate the environment around him, he did it well and with such tenacity that we nicknamed him “relentless.”
When he was small he worked very hard to make everyone around him see that giving him what he wanted was in the best interests of everyone involved. He would not let a little thing like a simple “no” or perhaps baby proofing stand in his way. He took these things as a challenge. When he heard the word “no” it was simply a cue to try to change the “no” to “yes” or perhaps just a battle fatigued “whatever”. He would whine. He would cry. He would have tantrums. He would continue on hoping that sooner or later that we would tire and give in. And even though we would not give in, he kept at it. He saw obstacles such as baby gates, and crib walls, and cabinet latches and the word “no”, as just a momentary slow down to his ultimate goal of getting what he wanted.
Several years ago, he begged on and on for something that I was not going to get for him. It may have been a cookie before dinner, it may have been a TV in his room, the actual request was not all that memorable. But the rest of the conversation was. As I grew tired of the constant asking and begging and saying “no” I said to Dash “Dash? You know that I am not going to give in. So why do you continue to argue with me? Has arguing and whining ever gotten you what you wanted from Dad and I?” And Dash responded with a resounding “Yes!”
“Yes?” I asked? “When?” I was surprised by his answer because my husband and I try very hard to be consistent . “Well, once, a couple years ago…” he began, and it was all I could do, to not laugh at loud and cry in frustration at the same time.
Now, at nine his tenacity manifests itself in trying to use his words and other people’s words to manipulate the situation. I give him a time to do his homework. He claims I gave him a different time. I tell him he needs to eat all of the food on his plate to get dessert and he leaves two bites and asks if he can have dessert, telling me that by “all,” I really meant all the food that he likes to eat on his plate. I tell him he can watch one TV show and he says that since he got TV taken away for two days as a punishment that he needs to watch two days worth of TV in one day to make up the deficit. He argues about the semantics of my word choices. He tries to find the loop holes in my requests and in my rules. He tries to wear us down.
It would be one thing if logic and reason would get him to understand what we need from him. But, when I am speaking, I believe it sounds to him like the adults in Charlie Brown Movies, “waw, waw, waw…” because he is too busy formulating his next argument to really listen to what I am saying. And, if he would just take our answer and move on, he would keep himself from getting into so much trouble. Instead, he has to have the last word, he has to keep it going. And too often this ends in frustration for all.
Stu’s post, last week, talked about “validating.” And I agree with Stu that this is important. And I do this with my children. But, there are some children, for whom validation is not enough. They need victory. My mom frequently tells me that with my brother, she would listen and respond with statements such as “you are right, however…” or “I understand how you feel but I need you to…” or “regardless…” But, my son just takes these as an opportunity to ratchet up the argument a notch and keep it going. Most times with Dash, the only way to end a debate is to declare it over. Unfortunately I have found myself saying things like “because I said so!” and “because I am the one in charge here!” In my not so negative moments, I just simply state that I have listened to him and I understand his feelings, but we are done discussing the situation. I give him a choice of complying or not, but he needs to understand what the consequences of non-compliance is. And then I am done.
This does not always end the debate. But, when I am done on my side, I am done. Does anyone else have a great debater at their house? Should I just accept that this is the way it is going to be and start prepping him for the high school debate team in 6 years? Or is there something that I am missing that just might make our lives more peaceful?
by In The Fast Lane
9 responses so far ↓
Stu Mark // Oct 15, 2008 at 3:24 pm
OMG!! My daughter, about to turn 13, is the biggest debater! She’s like a high-priced litigator. When we have to approach her with some behavior modification, my wife and I have a strategy session first, making sure we’re on the same page. It’s tough, especially because we’re proud of her, even while we’re frustrated.
And then there’s the worry that she’s not learning how to own her mistakes, to be ok with them. When we pin her down about a mistake she’s made, she wigs out, full force. We know that we can’t just walk away from it, but we feel bad for her psychic pain. Parenting is the best!!
STL Mom // Oct 15, 2008 at 4:55 pm
My daughter sometimes says, “No, I’m not going to be great lawyer!” because she gets tired of us comparing her to one.
Kids like this are so smart, but such a pain in the you-know-what. I found the book “Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child” by Robert MacKenzie to be helpful when my daughter was young. But it sounds like you are already experienced at holding the line and ending the debates.
I have a friend whose daughter is more persistent and argumentative than mine, which says a lot. I keep reminding my friend that someday her daughter will be the award-winning sales rep, because she will never take “no” for an answer. Someday this will pay off! If her mom doesn’t kill her in the meantime…
Jen // Oct 15, 2008 at 6:46 pm
I can relate. Both my kids think everything is up for negotiation..
Jennifer McKinnon // Oct 15, 2008 at 8:56 pm
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I feel your pain and frustration.
I have an eight year old and I wonder sometimes whether he grew 15 years overnight. The things that he says, I swear he stayed up half the night thinking it up. What kid knows how to argue like that?!?
I try to be firm and I try to remember that he’s just a child learning how to be an adult. He’s just trying on the ‘big kid’ hat to see if I’ll let him get away with it.
I feel bad because there are times that I don’t want to be around him because I’m tired of arguing.
Now, I’ve admitted to the worst thing a mother could admit out loud!
mom, again // Oct 16, 2008 at 2:40 am
We had one like that. She didn’t go to law school in the end. Well, yet, she’s only 23.
The hardest part for me was that I had been such a compliant child, that I just couldn’t fathom her behaviour, much less deal with it. Her dad had also been a debator, but his authoritarian/military parenting style was unmodifiable. Finally, her step-dad, a British grammer school followed by Oxford U. trained philosopher and mathmetician came along. He blinded her with much better logic, debate and vocabulary skills. Though he says it was a challenge right from the first meeting, when she was 8!
Lori // Oct 16, 2008 at 7:22 am
You know that I have said before (jokingly, sort of) that I think validation is over-rated.
It’s sort of one of those modern day parenting theories that we think we have to take as gospel when really it’s just a good practice, when possible, to some extent.
I have had many situations where I came to realize that my attempts at validation were being perceived by my child as a possibility for victory, as you so aptly put it. The more I validated the more he argued. In fact, in those situations, I have also felt in hindsight that there was an element of relief for both of us when I finally just drew the line and said, “Enough.”
InTheFastLane // Oct 16, 2008 at 7:34 am
Jennifer - I don’t think that is the worst thing a parent can say out loud. Because there are certainly times that all of our kids wear on us. And I have been there many times. It is one of the reasons that my 9 year old’s bedtime was so early for years, because by 7:00, I needed him in bed. Now that we let him stay up until 8, sometimes that last 1/2 hour can be torture and I have to tell him that he can stay up. but he has to go read, or play a DS game, somewhere on his own.
Whitney Hoffman // Oct 16, 2008 at 8:07 am
When I was in law school, I commuted to school with a woman who had a 4 year old. She said she never felt like she had to study very much for her class in mediation and negotiation, because she got daily practice at home with her child about everything. And now I feel very much the same way myself!
Kids need to know where the limits are, and the push to test the limits and the rules- How serious are you? And with parents, I think they test us because we’re that safe spot to land and test these skills out on before they go try them with teachers and peers.
Kids don’t like to lose, and often feel very little power and control in their lives- we, the parents, look like we have all the control and no worries, but we all know that’s about the farthest thing from the truth. I might have control, but I have responsibilities, too.
There’s a tough balance we need to strike between letting our kids have power and learn self-control and discipline, and providing those things externally with rules, regulations, and plain old courtesy and deference.
(secret tip: sometimes reminding them that90% of the rules are health and safety oriented, and the rest fall under room-mate and good citizen issues occasionally helps stem the dissent among the troops, at least temporarily.)
Jennifer // Oct 29, 2008 at 9:54 am
This is my 9 year old son…to a tee.
I am getting better about being clear on the fact that I am not going to negotiate with him. The more I put my foot down, the more ways he finds out from under it. When all else fails he lays on the guilt…he got that from my mother btw.
He’s my oldest, so I just look at is as training. I am getting better tho!
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