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19 responses so far ↓

• Jecathre // Jul 7, 2008 at 5:01 am

  My son isn’t old enough for me to have a useful opinion as a parent, but I have been a youth minister for a long time. From that perspective, your question has a couple of answers.

  1. Are they old enough to make an informed decision? Most religions have an age when the child becomes an adult. I don’t recommend using 13 as an age for voting, drinking or driving, but I think it’s a reasonable age to let them decide if they go to services.

  2. Have you had a serious conversation with them about why you go to services? What does it mean to you, and what do you hope it would mean for you?

  3. Are you encouraging, or requiring, them to be active in community service? Even if they don’t share your faith, they may share your principles. Working with and for others often helps people to examine and clarify their beliefs.

  And if you do end up being faithful parents who raise atheists, you won’t be the first.

• Stu Mark // Jul 7, 2008 at 6:17 am

  Jecathre,

  Good questions - My kids are now 12 and 16. We’ve had a few talks with them about our religious views, about our sense of G-d and why we believe in Him, although not a lot of these talks. Most of time, when we have a ceremony at the house, we discuss the significance of that ceremony and we read the prayers in English as well, to give them a sense of what is happening.

  As for community service, we just talk about it. Our oldest is of an age where community service will become a requirement on our part - He volunteers as a youth soccer coach and referee, but he’s now old enough to do more, especially to help community members who are more in need. So good point there. As for sharing our principles, we talk *a lot* about morals in our house. Especially me. Almost all of the behavior adjustments that I get them to undertake come with a moral reasoning, and we discuss morality in general, regardless of their behavior. When I’m around, they get a healthy dose of “here’s why I try to do the right thing.”

  Now, I must say, candidly, that my youngest experiences a bit of schadenfreude when our oldest gets in trouble, but that’s normal, and I’ve never seen her do it with anyone else, and she’s never like that if there’s pain involved, just when he makes a regular mistake. So I’m pretty sure that’s normal, although I wonder if it’s because we didn’t push religion on her.

• Anita B // Jul 7, 2008 at 8:43 am

  I agree with the Jecathre-those were very good questions indeed. My husband used to be a youth pastor and now is a pastor (yes, there’s a difference). Anyway, we have talked extensively on what we should do with our children in terms of religion. I was raised in a family where my father was a pastor as well, although a different denomination, and was forced to go to church with them each week until I moved out. (I was 19). My husband was raised in a family where you went with your parents to church every week until you could decide for yourself that you didn’t want to go. My husband still went regularly during his teen years, but not all the time. You know where that went-he grew up with a wonderful respect for the Lord and decided to devote his life to Him. I, on the other hand, moved out and rebelled, big time. I finally steered my way back to the church where, thankfully, I met my husband, but I had to decide for myself. So, in my opinion and personal experience, I agree with what you are doing. They are old enough to make the decisions for themselves, but you are still making sure that they know how important it is for you. I assume they went to temple with you when they were younger and you had brought them up in the faith before giving them a choice. So, I think your children will thank you later on. Interesting topic, thank you very much.

• Stu Mark // Jul 7, 2008 at 8:51 am

  Anita,

  Actually, no, we didn’t bring them to temple when they were younger - My wife belonged to a Roman Catholic church before I married her (and she took the kids, but only a few times a year). When I started a friendship with her, she had stopped going (she was recently divorced and her church turned their collective back on her). When we started talking of marriage, she started the process of converting to Judaism, although not because I asked her (which I didn’t - we’re not supposed to. In fact, I did what we’re supposed to do, which is dissuade her from converting - Jews believe that a person should only convert to Judaism of their own free will, and that fellow Jews should gently discourage them, so that the conversion is achieved through inner strength).

  So, short-hand, no, they’ve only been to a Temple a few times. And my wife and I don’t go that often, as Jews are allowed to pray at home (you say the same prayers as when you’re in temple, although there are a few slight adjustments to certain phrases).

• Stu Mark // Jul 7, 2008 at 8:54 am

  And, for anyone who is reading this, if it matters, I’m a man who holds a deep belief and profound respect for G-d. I’m ok if others don’t, but for me, my relationship with G-d is enormously meaningful to me.

• Anita B // Jul 7, 2008 at 8:58 am

  Well, regardless of what you have done with your children, they are going to see that you have a ‘deep belief and profound respect for God’, whether you take them or not. You just have to decide for yourself what’s right for your family-your children will, in-turn, decide what is best for them-no matter what you do.

• STL Mom // Jul 7, 2008 at 9:13 am

  Like Anita, I was a PK (pastor’s kid) who rebelled by not belonging to a church for years after I left home. Even in high school, I was always eager to work a Sunday morning shift so I could avoid church.
  Now I have young children, and I make them go to church. I think that religious training and education are valuable. However, we don’t go every Sunday and when they are old enough to stay home alone, I plan to let them decide how often they want to attend. I don’t think resentful teenagers will get much out of a service, and it certainly won’t improve my own experience.
  I do think family rituals are different than weekly services. Even when I never attended church on my own, I went to church when visiting my parents or other family members on a weekend, and I will expect my kids to do the same.

• Stu Mark // Jul 7, 2008 at 11:08 am

  One question I have for those reading this is: Do any of you think that my children will suffer any if they develop into grown-up atheists/agnostics? Is religion vital to being a proper grown-up?

• Jecathre // Jul 7, 2008 at 1:12 pm

  At 12 and 16, I think both of your kids are old enough to be involved in community service. I started volunteering with Pets-on-Wheels when I was twelve. It did require that my mother drive me there. I know that’s not an option for every family, but there are things that families can do together. It can be as simple as shoveling an older neighbor’s sidewalk after a snowstorm.

  I don’t think faith (and certainly not religion) is vital to being a proper grown-up. I know a few proper grown-ups with no religion at all, and plenty of people with religion who are utterly broken and confused. And besides, you can’t teach faith. You can teach ethics. You can teach the principles of your religion. But you can’t teach them to believe. As a youth minister, I believe it is not my job to be the Holy Spirit, it is only my job to give her room to work.

• Sandie Law // Jul 7, 2008 at 1:58 pm

  Great post and great conversation so far! My husband and I are kinda practicing Buddhists. We don’t go to temple or anything like that.

  We live in an area full of Christians and Catholics. It’s basically assumed that you’re a good, God fearing person if you live around here.

  That means MonkeyBoy has been inundated from a young age with Christianity. That’s ok with me. When he asks about God and Jesus, I answer his questions. Religious study is a bit of a hobby of mine, so I feel like I can answer most of his questions pretty clearly.

  My parents were pretty uninvolved with organized religion growing up, but they never stopped us when we wanted to go to church with friends. I ended up learning about several religions before ultimately settling on one that fit me. I don’t see why my son can’t do the same.

  I’m all for him using his head and his heart to decide what’s right for him. We don’t push Buddhism on him and we don’t tell him other religions aren’t good. To me, relgion is a very personal subject…you do what’s right for you…what you believe is true and honest. What works for you may not work for me and may not work for my kid. I’m ok with that. I just want him to make an informed decision with his whole heart and head.

• Cecily T // Jul 7, 2008 at 2:17 pm

  We sort of have the opposite PoV here. We are working out for ourselves what religious stories/phrases/holidays we think are good and okay to celebrate. Apologies to all the Christians, but we celebrate Christmas mostly as a ‘yay for family’/presents all around/Santa Claus and btw, there’s a tree in our house kind of way. We plan to answer the why of celebration just like that pretty much, with relevant history thrown in for good measure.

  To answer Stu’s last comment, we are planning to proudly raise our almost-one-year-old as an atheist, so I think if anything, children who are taught that there is no one right way and that questioning is important and good are better off than those who have even been exposed to a default religion. We’ve sort of been exploring this about ourselves, as we are both atheists who were raised Christian/Protestant and I’ve noticed that we are sort of reverse hyper-sensitive to Christian things, while we were sort of more okay with our daughter hearing legends/stories from other (non-Judeo/Christian) religions. I recently came to the conclusion that we were reacting this way just b/c the Christian stuff was just…accepted by everyone around us that we rejected it even more strongly.

• Anita B // Jul 7, 2008 at 2:47 pm

  As a Christian, it breaks my heart to meet so many people who have been beaten down by the many pompous people or the church who claim to have their best interests in mind. Like Jecathre, I believe that it’s not my job to be the Holy Spirit. I was put on this earth by God to love others, not judge them. I can only share His love with others and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. If you teach your children to love others, and to always ask questions, they’re going to be much better off. As I said before, being forced to believe one way as I grew up had some ill effects on my life. As parents, you just need to be able to be there to answer as many questions as possible and to be there in ultimate love and support, even if you don’t agree with what they decide. I know this might sound off coming from a Christian and, even more odd, a pastor’s wife, but I do plan on taking this advice when my son comes home to tell me of his choices. I may not agree with everything he might do, but I want to make sure that he talks to me about it-and feels comfortable doing so. I hope to never look at him with disdain and to let him ultimately make his own decisions.

• Rob // Jul 8, 2008 at 6:48 am

  “One question I have for those reading this is: Do any of you think that my children will suffer any if they develop into grown-up atheists/agnostics? Is religion vital to being a proper grown-up?”

  Stu-

  It seems like you have already answered your first question.

  “my relationship with G-d is enormously meaningful to me.”

  If this is true, what does life look like for you without that relationship?

  If for a moment, we leave off the second part of your question about ‘religion’ and just focus on the first, what meaning do you imagine might be missing from your children’s lives if they don’t have a relationship?

  This is not to say that they should have the same relationship. They won’t. It is clear however that you believe that their is value in having a relationship with your Creator.

  Having read your other parenting posts in the past, it seems clear that you are developing a sense of values among your family unit. You value independence, kindness, hard work, manners, respectfulness, a broad view of gender roles, problem solving, and a respect for the value of earning money to name a few.

  What I am wondering is if you are as clear with them about the value you put on your relationship with God? Do you have the same expectations for this parental value as you do for others?

  I may be wrong, but it appears as though there is some hesitancy to bring them to Temple for fear of imposing your values. I’m not sure bringing them is implicit imposition, but exposure, which could serve to broaden their ability to make a choice. After all, how can one choose to participate in the community of religion without knowledge of it.

  This brings me to the second part of your question: Is religion vital to being a proper grown up?

  My beliefs on this subject have changed over time. What I will share is this…

  My favorite prayer is said on occasion during mass with the entire community. It is called the ‘Confiteor’ and it begins ‘I confess to Almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters that I have sinned…’

  What stands out for me is the relationship, not just with God, but with each other in relation to God and that our transgressions are not just acts against God, but against each other.

  Likewise, I appreciate Rosh Hashanah (at least my understanding of it) in the same regard, that the casting off of sins is not just in relation to Him, but to each other.

  So, religion for me, becomes about community, a very specific type of community, and our relationship with God happens both within and without that context.

  What happens then if we remove either the within or the without?

  Thanks for the questions.

• Stu Mark // Jul 8, 2008 at 8:48 am

  Mr. Hatch,

  Wisdom, as always. Thanks for taking the time to comment so earnestly and sagely.

  Community is an interesting concept in our house. My kids have a biological father who shares life with them on a regular basis. He comes from a big family (about 10 siblings), and his family has many gatherings to which he takes the kids. They always come back a little-to-a lot overwhelmed.

  So when they’re with us, we try to be sensitive their need for others, and if they need solitude, we do our best to provide them with it. Their father forces them to attend communal events, no matter their open resistance. That’s his right as a parent. But we see the results, and so we take a balancing tact of letting them choose how much community they get. Sometimes they crave it - sometimes my son skates to the local park to skate with the others, sometimes he sits in his room and watches the soccer channel - sometimes my daughter brings her girlfriends over to the house and there is much laughter and noise, sometimes she sits in her room and plays her GameBoy or watches The Simpsons.

  Would I like to have them be more communal in a way that I can participate and be witness to? Yes. But I feel that my job is to provide them with the best growing up possible, and in our circumstance, balance is *everything* - So while I’d love to take them to temple, or take them to hebrew school, I see the greater good in letting them have some choice in their experiencing of other humans, at least during the half-of-the-time that we have them.

  And yes, having your kids half-of-the-time is pretty painful - It’s sorta like having the use of your legs for only 50% of your week. Pretty awful.

• Debbie // Jul 8, 2008 at 10:12 am

  Stu,
  I had to think about your essay before answering, so at this point it looks like all the good answers are taken. Mine sounds too simplistic in comparison. I think parents put their stamp on children whether they intend to or not, so doing what feels best for you might be the best tack. If your kids see you squirming in services, they might hesitate to go on their own. If they see you enjoying them, they might be curious enough to investigate. If you talk about G-d, honesty, charity, etc, in your household, and behave accordingly, so will they.

  My parents are a lapsed Orthodox (Jewish) mom and a Reform (Jewish) dad. They both believe one can develop one’s own private relationship with G-d if one so chooses. Having been allowed this freedom, I did, at a very early age; and both parents followed through by never arguing with me about what I believed or how I chose to demonstrate it. When I eventually decided to become more observant of the rituals than they are, and to attend services more than they do, it was of my own volition. In other words, their genuine belief in freedom of belief allowed me to shape my own spiritual development.

  Their genuine belief in the power of good deeds has also rubbed off on me. My life may lack some things most adults value–e.g. professional achievement and status–but I wouldn’t change it if it meant I couldn’t do what I have done for others.

  My husband was raised by parents similar to mine. His beliefs are similar to mine, though he enjoys services less than I do. We bring our children to services less often than I would like and more often than he would. We stay only as long as the kids stay engaged. Meanwhile, at home, we do rituals such as Shabbat dinner and prayers before bed. And always, always Peter and I are helping others, because we grew up watching our parents do it.

  Btw, the irony doesn’t escape me that our kids, who were once poor orphans, are giving to charity.

• Stu Mark // Jul 8, 2008 at 5:24 pm

  Now, our kids may not participate in voluntary action involving, y’know, muscles and being vertical, but they do help choose which charities receive our money. Because of our daughter, the ASPCA has received very generously from us over the years. And, because of a personal reason, I give what I can to OxFam. So at least the kids see that charity is important to us.

  And another thing, we talk about the act of charity, the concept, a lot. We teach them that even if the act of charity is to help a friend carry their books home, it counts. And now that my son is 16, I’ve taught him the joy of overtipping.

  As for Judaism, we pray at home because we can, because a lot of the services don’t require a minyan (that’s ten people, for the hebraicly-challenged). But a lot of that has to do with the fact that my wife and I find the synagogues in Los Angeles to be snobby and elitist. Despite that, we should take the kids to more Torah services.

  These comments always leave me thinking - Thanks!

• Anita B // Jul 8, 2008 at 5:30 pm

  Just as a side note-thanks for mentioning tipping. Not to rag on other Christians or to lump them into one group, but I know several people who are waiters/waitresses and they say that Sunday afternoons are always the short stick in the scheduling department because people get out of church and go to lunch and don’t tip very well. And I know several of my friends from church who, when I go out with them, leave measly or no tip. I’m not sure what the problem is-I always seem to check and then add another 5. Anyway, just thought I’d throw that in there because it’s sort of a soapbox for me. I think teaching your son how to tip is an exceptional skill that not everyone thinks is all that important.

• Alex Elliot // Jul 8, 2008 at 8:54 pm

  Well, I’m a Unitarian Universalist and my husband is Jewish and also a Unitarian. It is important to us personally and as UUs that our children be educated on as many religions and faith paths, including atheism and agnosticism. That is very different though than saying that they have to go to church or temple services. I truly think choosing a religion is a personal decision and also one that can grow with people throughout their lives.

  It sounds to me like you have given your kids the tools they need to be able to make their own decisions.

• Stu Mark // Jul 9, 2008 at 8:48 am

  Alex - another great essay idea! - As kids’ brains don’t stop developing until they are 25, what’s the balancing point on letting them make their own decisions? I’m gonna file that one away, ’cause it’s definitely gonna need its own comment section.

  As for religion being something that can grow with people throughout their lives, I agree - and it’s a choice - some folks develop an initial sense of religion and then never stray from that vantage point. That’s all well and good, but for me, straying from the path is my favorite pastime. I love that my sense of my religion grows as I grow. I’m a Jew, and pretty set on staying one, yet my appreciation for Jesus Christ grows all the time. I can honestly say now, at age 41, that Jesus Christ’s words guide me in my life decisions. Other’s words guide me as well, but I’ve found that over the past few years, my learning of Christ’s concepts has given me a renewed sense of purpose in serving humankind.

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